It is a big day for Reading of the Wheel of Time. We’re just five days past the anniversary of the first post in this series, and today we start in on the third book, The Dragon Reborn. It seems that Robert Jordan is determined to make me face my prejudice against prologues and epilogues, as each one has been more critical to analysis than the last. Of course, the Prologue of The Eye of the World is actually incredibly important, but there was no way to know how when I had just begun reading the book. The Prologue of The Dragon Reborn, however, widens the reader’s perspective of proceeding events even more than the Prologue of The Great Hunt did, providing information on some of the players in The Great Hunt. I even suspect we have a recurring appearance from “the man who called himself Bors” in the character of Inquisitor Jaichim Carridin.
Captain Geofram Bornhald has, until now, been our only real window into the thinking of the Children of the Light, and now we are seeing their functions in a whole new light, through the perspective and machinations of the Lord Captain Commander himself, as well as through an Inquisitor who is really a Darkfriend. I always suspected that the political machinations of the Whitecloaks would be both fascinating and appalling, and I find my suspicions more or less borne out in this one prologue alone.
The Prologue opens with Pedron Niall, Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light, interviewing Jaret Byar about the deaths of Geofram Bornhald and his legion, and the advent of a new man declaring himself the Dragon Reborn.
He is an old man, but Niall is nevertheless still strong, his audience room sparsely furnished like a soldier’s, except for the gold sunburst in the floor. Niall cares little for the wealth he walks across, and is more concerned with the age in his hands as he unrolls the parchment of a drawing. He thinks about how little time he has left, and how he has to make it be enough.
The drawing shows of a young man with gray eyes and red hair, possibly tall, but mostly unremarkable save for his coloring.
“This… this boy has proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn?” Niall muttered.
The Dragon. The name made him feel the chills of winter and age. The name borne by Lews Therin Telamon when he doomed every man who could channel the One Power, then or ever after, to insanity and death, himself among them. It was more than three thousand years since Aes Sedai pride and the War of the Shadow had brought an end to the Age of Legends. Three thousand years, but prophecy and legend helped men remember—the heart of it, at least, if the details were gone. Lews Therin Kinslayer. The man who had begun the Breaking of the World, when madmen who could tap the power that drove the universe leveled mountains and sank ancient lands beneath the seas, ” “when the whole face of the earth had been changed and all who survived fled like beasts before a wildfire. It had not ended until the last male Aes Sedai lay dead, and a scattered human race could begin trying to rebuild from the rubble—where even rubble remained. It was burned into memory by the stories mothers told children. And prophecy said the Dragon would be born again.”
It was a rhetorical question, but Byar answers it anyway, explaining how thousands of people have already proclaimed for this new false Dragon, and how Arad Doman and Tarabon are in civil war and there was fighting all along Almoth Plain until the full cold of winter set in. Byar has never seen unrest spread so quickly, and he expects it to rise back up again as soon as winter abates.
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The Dragon Reborn
Niall raises a finger, interrupting a story Byar has already told him, twice. He asks if Byar is certain that Bornhald and his legion were destroyed by Aes Sedai, fighting openly, and Byar answers that he is. He explains how he saw “two of the Tar Valon witches” and tells how the ground exploded beneath the Children’s feet and how lightning struck their ranks from a clear sky. Niall can see the conviction in Byar’s face, a man of honesty though not of imagination. This fits with how Bornhald has described him.
Niall knows that there have been no male Aes Sedai since the breaking of the world, but he sees the women as being almost as bad. Now he can see that the Three Oaths of the Aes Sedai—“to speak no word that was not true, to make no weapon for one man to kill another, to use the One Power as a weapon only against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn”—are lies just as he always believed them to be. No one, he thinks, could want such power as the Aes Sedai wielded, except to challenge the Creator and fight for the Dark One.
He asks after the ones who destroyed Bornhald and the legion, and Byar explains that they called themselves Seanchan, and that Bornhald called them Darkfriends. Byar loyally explains that Bornhald and the legion may have died in their efforts, but that they also succeeded in driving the Seanchan back. Byar also reminds Niall that he was commanded by Bornhald to stand aside from the battle and observe, and Niall distractedly reassures him that no one doubts his honesty or courage. As Byar stands to go, however, he has to bring something else up again: the fact that they were betrayed.
“By this one Darkfriend you spoke of, Child Byar?” He could not keep an edge out of his own voice. A year’s planning lay in ruins amid the corpses of a thousand of the Children, and Byar wanted to talk only of this one man. “This young blacksmith you’ve only seen twice, this Perrin from the Two Rivers?”
“Yes, my Lord Captain Commander. I do not know how, but I know he is to blame. I know it.”
Niall assures Byar that it will be addressed, and dismisses him as Byar tries to keep talking. He wonders what had Byar so obsessed with Perrin; there are too many Darkfriends to be so focused on just one.
He shifted on the hard chair, trying to find comfort for his old bones. Not for the first time he thought vaguely that perhaps a cushion would not be too much luxury. And not for the first time, he pushed the thought away. The world tumbled toward chaos, and he had no time to give in to age.
He let all the signs that foretold disaster swirl through his mind. War gripped Tarabon and Arad Doman, civil war ripped at Cairhien, and war fever was rising in Tear and Illian, old enemies “as they were. Perhaps these wars meant nothing in themselves—men fought wars—but they usually came one at a time. And aside from the false Dragon somewhere on Almoth Plain, another tore at Saldaea, and a third plagued Tear. Three at once. They must all be false Dragons. They must be!
Niall thinks of the other signs he has become aware of. Sightings of Aiel, who have only come out of the Waste one time since the Breaking, during the Aiel War. The Sea Folk ignoring trade and seeking signs and portents but refusing to explain. The Great Hunt for the Horn called in Illian, seeking the Horn of Valere which, prophecy says, must be present at Tarmon Gai’don, the Last Battle. Even the Ogier, who almost never leave their steddings, are said to be traveling between them to meet with each other.
And then there is the issue of the Aes Sedai. Niall has heard that some Aes Sedai were sent to confront one of the other false Dragons, Mazrim Taim, who can channel the One Power. Even Niall acknowledges the benefit of having the Aes Sedai deal with such a man, but now they have apparently given their support to the man in the drawings. He can find no other way to understand the facts he has been presented with.
Niall can see chaos building, and is certain that these signs mean that the Last Battle really is coming. This has disrupted his “plans that would have secured his name among the Children of the Light for a hundred generations,” but he does see new opportunities in the current turmoil, as long as he has the time to act on them.
His thoughts are interrupted by the arrival of Jaichim Carridin, an Inquisitor of the Hand of the Light, whom Niall summoned earlier. He tells Carridin of the news from Falme, which the Inquisitor is already aware of, despite the fact that no one besides Niall is supposed to have heard it. Niall muses if the Questioners really consider themselves part of the Children at all. Carridin tells him that there are Darkfriends in Falme.
“Darkfriends?” Niall’s chuckle held no amusement. “A few weeks gone I was receiving reports from you that Geofram Bornhald was a servant of the Dark One because he moved soldiers onto Toman Head against your orders.” His voice became dangerously soft. “Do you now mean me to believe that Bornhald, as a Darkfriend, led a thousand of the Children to their deaths fighting other Darkfriends?”
Carridin refuses to be baited, pointing out that they can never know if Bornhald was a Darkfriend because he died before he “could be put to the question.” Nevertheless, he is certain that those in Falme were Darkfriends and Aes Sedai, acting in support of a false Dragon, and that the One Power was used against Bornhald and against the armies of Arad Doman and Tarabon. He is also dismissive of the suggestion that the invaders in Falme came from across the Aryth Ocean. He explains that, of the few ships that ever tried to sail across the Aryth Ocean, those that returned did so because they were going to run out of food and water, and even the Sea Folk do not sail across the Aryth Ocean, despite being willing to sail to the lands beyond the Aiel Waste. Therefore, he argues, even if there are lands beyond the ocean, it would be impossible to carry an army across them. In addition to this information, he explains that the armies in Falme had “monsters” fighting for them, which is obviously how uneducated witnesses would describe Trollocs and other Shadowspawn.
Niall asks after the drawings next, how dangerous Carridin believes the man to be, and whether he can channel. Carridin doesn’t know the answer to the latter, but imagines that the Aes Sedai could make it look like he can, in any case. Any false Dragon is dangerous, he continues, but he is not so dangerous now as he can become, given how scattered his forces are. Carridin promises that, once the spring comes, he will lead the other half of Bornhald’s legion—the half he did not take to Toman Head—and hunt down the false Dragon before summer comes.
Niall asks why Carridin didn’t take his own forces to Falme, why he tried to stop Bornhald, and whether there was an army of Darkfriends there.
Carridin blinked, but his voice remained steady. “At first they were only rumors, my Lord Captain Commander. Rumors so wild, no one could believe. By the time I learned the truth, Bornhald had joined battle. He was dead, and the Darkfriends scattered. Besides, my task was to bring the Light to Almoth Plain. I could not disobey my orders to chase after rumors.”
“Your task?” Niall said, his voice rising as he stood. Carridin topped him by a head, but the Inquisitor stepped back. “Your task? Your task was to seize Almoth Plain! An empty bucket that no one holds except by words and claims, and all you had to do was fill it. The nation of Almoth would have lived again, ruled by the Children of the Light, with no need to pay lip service to a fool of a king. Amadicia and Almoth, a vise gripping Tarabon. In five years we would have held sway there as much as here in Amadicia. And you made a dog’s dinner of it!”
Carridin protests that there was no way he could have known what would happen, but insists that he can still salvage the situation and find the false Dragon. But Niall cuts him off, telling Carridin that his plans are done and even suggesting that the High Inquisitor would not object if Niall put Carridin forward for questioning. Carridin, visibly nervous at last, observes that Niall is implying that there is another option, and reminds the Lord Captain Commander that he is sworn to obey his orders.
Niall feels a sense of danger, knowing that the gambit on which he is about to embark is risky and may result in his own quiet assassination if it gets out. He tells Carridin to find the false Dragon but not to kill him, rather to keep him alive, although any Aes Sedai getting near him should be killed. Using the analogy of a lion in the streets, he explains his plan to allow the Dragon to roam free long enough to scare people, and then to have the Children swoop in at the last moment. By putting themselves in that position, Niall believes they can subtly take control and gain acceptance for the Children as saviors, and therefore leaders.
Carridin asks if Niall means to take Tarabon and Arad Doman as well as Almoth Plain, but Niall only commands him to carry out his orders. He also tells Carridin that if the false Dragon dies, or if any accident or even natural death befalls Niall himself, Carridin will be next.
The door closed behind the Inquisitor. Niall rubbed his hands together. He felt cold. The dice were spinning, with no way of telling what pips would show when they stopped. The Last Battle truly was coming. Not the Tarmon Gai’don of legend, with the Dark One breaking free to be faced by the Dragon Reborn. Not that, he was sure. The Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends might have made a hole in the Dark One’s prison at Shayol Ghul, but Lews Therin Kinslayer and his Hundred Companions had sealed it up again. The counterstroke had tainted the male half of the True Source forever and driven them mad, and so begun the Breaking, but one of those ancient Aes Sedai could do what ten of the Tar Valon witches of today could not. The seals they had made would hold.
Niall believes that the “real” Tarmon Gai’don will be a huge, efficient attack, with Trollocs pouring out of the Blight and Myrddraal and perhaps new Dreadlords coordinating the efforts of the Shadowspawn. He believes that humanity is too scattered, too busy fighting amongst itself, to withstand such an attack, but that he can unite everyone under the banner of the Children of the Light, and that it will be Pedron Niall, not the Dragon Reborn, who will be recorded in the annals of history as having fought Tarmon Gai’don, and won.
Just then, the thoughts he is speaking aloud are interrupted by the arrival of a thin man with a large nose, who enters the chamber through a hidden panel. Niall tells the arrival, Ordeith, that the secret passage was only for Ordeith to use to enter the room unseen by the rest of the fortress, not so that Ordeith could spy on Niall’s personal conversation.
“Ordeith” answers smoothly that he only just arrived, and heard only the few words that Niall was just muttering aloud to himself. Niall notes the half-mocking smile that he has never seen absent from the man’s face. He knows, of course, that Ordeith is not the man’s true name; in the Old Tongue it means “wormwood.” The man arrived in mid-winter, somehow managing to talk his way through all the guards and to Pedron Niall himself. He has proven to know more about the events on Toman Head than even Carridin’s reports or Byar’s story. He was also clever enough to point Niall’s attention to the emerging pattern of chaos.
Still, Niall is annoyed at the man’s unsummoned arrival, and at the way Ordeith unrolls and stares at one of the drawings, his smile deepening to a grimace. He asks if Ordeith finds a false Dragon funny, and Ordeith laughs.
Ordeith admits that he knows the man in the drawing, that his name is Rand al’Thor, that he comes from the Two Rivers in Andor, and that he is a Darkfriend “so deep in the Shadow it would make your soul cringe to know the half.” Niall recognizes the name of the Two Rivers as the place where Byar said Perrin was from, prompting Ordeith to ask whether he means Matrim Cauthon or Perrin Aybara. He tells Niall that, while in the city Darkfriends must hide their true nature from those around them, in the country they can all be Darkfriends without fear of discovery.
“How is it you know the names of three Darkfriends, Ordeith? Three Darkfriends from the far end of forever. You keep too many secrets, Wormwood, and pull more surprises from your sleeve than a gleeman.”
“How can any man tell all that he knows, Great Lord,” the little man said smoothly. “It would be only prattle, until it becomes useful. I will tell you this, Great Lord. This Rand al’Thor, this Dragon, has deep roots in the Two Rivers.”
“False Dragon!” Niall said sharply, and the other man bowed.
“Of course, Great Lord. I misspoke myself.”
Niall notices that Ordeith is crumpling the drawing in his fist, and angrily orders him to stop. He takes the parchment, finding it damaged but the face still somehow intact. He remarks that perhaps he should make plans for the Two Rivers, once the snow clears.
Meanwhile, Carridin is returning to his room, furious, not even noticing the fine and expensive furnishings he usually takes a great deal of pleasure in. He shouts for his servant, but when he turns to confront the man he finds not a man at all, but a Myrddraal.
Terrified, Carridin tries to compose himself, but doesn’t really succeed. He asks the Myrdraal why it is there, and it replies that it likes to keep an eye on those who serve it.
“I ser… ”
It was no use. With an effort Carridin jerked his eyes away from that smooth expanse of pale, pasty face and turned his back. A shiver ran down his spine, having his back to a Myrddraal. Everything was sharp in the mirror on the wall in front of him. Everything but the Halfman. The Myrddraal was an indistinct blur. Hardly soothing to look at, but better than meeting that stare. A little strength returned to Carridin’s voice.
Still, it takes effort for him to say aloud that he serves the Great Lord of the Dark, knowing that even the faintest whisper of those words could condemn him in a fortress of the Children of the Light. But he manages it.
The Myrddraal asks why Carridin isn’t on Almoth Plain, and isn’t happy when Carridin replies that he was summoned by the Lord Captain Commander. He reminds Carridin that he was ordered to find Rand al’Thor and kill him, before and above all else, and demands to know why Carridin is not obeying the orders. Carridin tries to explain that things have changed, that matters are not as much in his control as they were, but the Myrddraal only reminds him that he forswore his oaths to the Light, and that he will be required to keep the new ones.
Carridin, confused, says that that he thought that the Great Lord of the Dark meant to use Rand al’Thor, not kill him.
“You question me? I should take your tongue. It is not your part to question. Or to understand. It is your part to obey! You will give dogs lessons in obedience. Do you understand that? Heel, dog, and obey your master.”
The Myrddraal attacks him, grabbing him up by his jaw and hoisting him into the air; he dangles in its grip, unable to make a sound past a gurgle, as the Myrddraal threatens him. He tells Carridin that, for every month that Rand al’Thor remains alive, it will kill one of his family members, and if it goes through all his blood without Rand dying, Carridin will be taken to Shayol Ghul. Carridin can’t respond until the Myrddraal drops him.
“I… I hear and obey,” Carridin managed into the carpet. There was no answer.
He turned his head, wincing at the pain in his neck. The room was empty except for him. Halfmen rode shadows like horses, so the legends said, and when they turned sideways, they disappeared. No wall could keep them out. Carridin wanted to weep. He levered himself up, cursing the jolt of pain from his wrist.
Just then, his servant, Sharbon, returns with a basket of fruit, and when he asks if Carridin is alright, receives a backhand across the face. The servant apologizes meekly, and Carridin tells him to fetch him pen and parchment. He must send orders, but privately he is stymied as to which ones he should, or can, send. He stares at the table, where the Myrddraal dragged its nails through the wood and left gouges behind.
“I hear and obey.”
Carridin says the same words both to Pedron Niall and to the Myrddraal. Of course the obviousness of the parallel draws attention to the fact that this servant of two masters has received two sets of contradicting orders with two rather similar threats (in style, if not in actual degree of substance). Carridin—who is very probably also the man who called himself Bors, who we met in the Prologue of The Great Hunt—seems to be in an impossible situation, and one suspects that this is a bit of a new experience for him. The man who called himself Bors was a very confident, even cocky man, and even if Carridin is not Bors, Niall’s opinion of him, and the careful way he handles the man, also fits this assessment. Arrogance seems to be a part of the Darkfriend experience, whether it’s Gode or Lanfear or Ba’alzamon/Ishamael himself; no doubt Carridin thought he could avoid this kind of situation, playing Pedron Niall as he saw fit and turning his Children of the Light duties to his true master’s Dark purposes.
And now he’s in really hot water. It will be interesting to see how he handles his situation.
What I love about this Prologue is how seamlessly it reintroduces us into the world of The Wheel of Time. It is a very tricky thing in sequels and series to remind the reader of everything they technically learned in past books but may have forgotten while waiting for the next to come out, without being repetitious, trite, or boringly obvious. It’s usually just something you have to put up with in series (and something I was particularly bracing for given that I’m reading these books back-to-back rather than waiting in between publishing dates) but Jordan has managed it rather beautifully here in the opening of The Dragon Reborn. Sure, there are a few paragraphs where he just repeats the standard explanations of who the Dragon is supposed to be or what Myrddraal look like, but over all he uses the device of switching perspectives to make even old information fresh. If this prologue had been written as a chapter at the end of The Great Hunt, it would not have seemed superfluous at all. Pedron’s understanding of what happened on Almoth Plain is important to us, and the revelation of Carridin’s predicament is fresh information, even as it also reminds us of how being a Darkfriend works and what the plans were for Rand in the last book. We’ll see this skill of Jordan’s again next week when we cover the first proper chapters of The Dragon Reborn, which are narrated from Perrin’s point of view.
We’re also learning a lot of true names today; this is the first time we’ve encountered Byar’s first name, and I feel kind of weird about it. I do not like Byar at all, he’s a perfect example of how stubbornness and extremism go hand-in-hand with lack of imagination, and I can just imagine what damage he might do to our heroes in his need for revenge against the Darkfriends who “betrayed them.” It may never occur to him that there could be another explanation, that there could be other people besides the Children who are fighting against the Dark, even if that evidence comes up and smacks him in the face. Which, you know, I hope it does. The creepy obsession the man is starting to develop with Perrin feels like it’s going to become our wolf brother’s own version of what Padan Fain is to Rand. If he pursues a personal vendetta against Perrin, he’ll become the same kind of stalker, blaming the boy for all his problems even though any part that Perrin played in Byar’s fate was entirely unwitting and unintentional, just as Rand was in Padan Fain’s. But it’s easier to make a young man a scapegoat for your own fears and failings than to face a more complicated truth, and although Fain is obviously much more horrible than Byar, Byar also doesn’t have the excuse of all the damage that was done to Fain’s brain by his experiences in Shayol Ghul and under Mordeth’s influence.
I found it interesting that “Ordeith,” or whatever he’s actually calling himself in his own head these days, seems to be settling into his new identity; there doesn’t seem to be much left that is distinctly Fain, and the Mordeth-born impulses to pull his old tricks seems to be taking the forefront in this personality. I was wondering what happened to him during all the commotion in Falme, and I was also wondering if he was having the kind of success he wanted with High Lord Turak. The thinking of the Children of the Light certainly seems much more susceptible to Mordeth’s manipulation than Turak’s honor-and-rules-driven cultural mindset, and I’m really not surprised to find him getting his nose into Pedron Niall’s business.
And Niall’s line of thinking is, well, mind-boggling to me.
I wish we’d had a moment or two in his head in the last book, just so I could know if some of the flaws in his logic were put there, or at least encouraged, by Ordeith (I’m just gonna keep calling him that until the narration gives me something else or reverts back to Padan Fain), because the man prides himself as being logical and a tactician, and yet he makes some really short-sighted, dare I say deliberately ignorant, assumptions here that I just can’t understand.
Niall believes he can see the approach of the Last Battle in the increased amount of chaos and in-fighting in the human realms. Fair enough. But although the appearance of the Aiel traveling outside their homes, the fact that not one war but three different ones are wracking the lands, and the declaration of three different men as the Dragon Reborn are enough to convince him that the Last Battle is coming, somehow it’s not possible in his mind that the rest of the prophecies concerning that battle could be true. The narration doesn’t explain his logic here, doesn’t give a reason that he would accept some signs and not others, or why he thinks it’s so impossible that the seals on the Dark One’s prison might not hold forever.
He’s willing to decide unilaterally that none of the Aes Sedai of the present day could have a reason for seeking the power they wield other than to oppose the Creator and fight on behalf of the Dark One, but he believes that those Aes Sedai who made the seals can be trusted? His reason to believe the seals to be so unbreakable is that those Aes Sedai were so much more powerful than the ones of his lifetime, but by his own logic those Aes Sedai would have to be even more evil than the ones he knows today, given how much power they had. It would make much more sense to me if he believed some Darkfriend Aes Sedai deliberately designed the seals to break eventually, or even set some kind of timer on them, so that the Dark One could break free at the opportune moment.
As a side note, this isn’t quite the first time we’ve gotten information of how there came to be a hole in the Dark One’s prison, but it’s finally gotten my attention here in this moment. The “patch” or “seal” on the prison is mentioned a few times in The Eye of the World (and further explained in the glossary entry on the Dark One, which mentions that he was imprisoned by the Creator during Creation and that “an attempt to free him from that prison brought about the War of the Shadow, the tainting of saidin, the Breaking of the World, and the end of the Age of Legends.”). In The Great Hunt, the point is made early on that the seal is human work, as compared to the original prison made by the Creator; then, when Moiriane shows Min and Rand the broken seals after the battle on Toman Head, she observes that “once all seven are broken, perhaps even before, the patch men put over the hole they drilled into the prison the Creator made will be torn asunder, and the Dark One will once more be able to put his hand through that hole and touch the world. And the only hope of the world is that the Dragon Reborn will be there to face him.” (tGH p. 630)
One has to assume that it was the Forsaken who drilled into the Dark One’s prison, hoping to free him, but given how much flack Lews Therin Telamon gets for what happened, I wonder if there isn’t more to the story of how there came to be a hole in the prison. Certainly, given how terrible the destruction of the Breaking was, it’s hard to expect a lot of even-handedness when it comes to placing blame for the taint. But perhaps it wasn’t just Darkfriends who were responsible for the danger of the Dark One escaping. Perhaps some Aes Sedai tampered with the prison, not knowing what it truly was. Perhaps Lews Therin or someone else got too cocky and thought they could get in there and kill the Dark One, nearly setting him free instead. Perhaps there’s another explanation, but I do wonder why it was that no female Aes Sedai chose to go with Lews Therin, unless there is more to the story than we know. The taint on saidin was a terrible blow to the world, but not as terrible as it would have been if the Dark One broke free, right?
Anyway, getting back to Pedron Niall. He doesn’t want Carridin to know it, but he agrees with the man’s assessment that there can be no way to reach lands beyond the Aryth Ocean, even though the logic here basically just boils down to “if it were possible, we, specifically, would have heard about someone doing it.” Which is pretty flimsy logic, right? Those who returned alive did so by making sure they turned back in time to have enough rations for the return journey, which means if they had been willing to risk it, they could have sailed roughly twice as far as they did. That’s a lot more ocean to cover, and yes, no one has made it back from finding those lands, but Niall could still entertain the possibility that the armies of Artur Hawkwing, who were provisioned during a time of much greater prosperity, meaning better ships, better food, and who knows what else, did make it. If that’s true, he has a possible alternative explanation to what happened to those other ships. Maybe they all died at sea, or maybe they reached those lands and simply weren’t allowed to return for some reason! For a “brilliant tactician,” Pedron Niall certainly doesn’t want to consider any but the obvious answers to questions.
Whew. I don’t know why this is all making me so heated. It gets back to the arrogance thing, I think, and also to Pedron Niall burying his head in the sand. When he thinks about the three false dragons on the Almoth Plain, in Saldaea, and Tear, he puts special emphasis on thinking that they must be false Dragons. There is no room in his mind for the possibility that he might be wrong, that there could be a real Dragon and a real battle with the Dark One coming. At the end of the day, I think that’s because that prospect is too frightening for Pedron Niall, or probably any of the Children, to face.
And one can certainly understand that, to an extent. No one can easily face the idea of the Dragon’s return, even if they believe that it is inevitable. The Dragon is supposed to Break the world again: His coming will bring death and destruction, and the results of the Last Battle don’t exactly seem guaranteed, either. That would scare anybody, and the Children are at a disadvantage because they have set themselves up as the only true champions of the Light. They believe the Aes Sedai are deceptive at best and Darkfriends at worst, and the existence of the Dragon challenges that position. And while the Children might believe they can be a match for all Darkfriends and even for Aes Sedai (surely Carridin is far from the only one to favor the knife in the dark approach), but against the actual Dark One, free to touch the world? I doubt even their arrogance would hold up well under that threat. So what you have here is Pedron Niall standing in a position of power and striving for more, refusing to see any possibilities but the ones that will serve his purpose, even though by doing so he’s actually helping along the very thing he fears the most. It’s kind of like climate change denial; people don’t want to accept that it’s real because it’s a terrifying thing and combating it will require a set of struggles and sacrifices very different from the ones we prepared ourselves for. But the other option is worse, and the longer we spend pretending it doesn’t exists, the closer our own doom creeps.
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In contrast, consider Moiraine. She is always very cognizant of the things she doesn’t know, even though, ostensibly, she has more knowledge about what is really going on than anybody we have encountered so far. She is confident enough to point out when she has more knowledge and experience than other characters, to trust her own research and knowledge as far as it can take her, but she is also careful to consider what she does not know and to strive to accommodate new information, rather than trying to force it into the truths she already believes.
Moiraine points out plenty of times that they can only guess at the Darkfriends’ plans. They cannot know for certain exactly how much power the Dark One is able to exert on the world or the Pattern, and cannot interpret the Prophecies of the Dragon with any kind of guaranteed accuracy. This is what allows her to be flexible and adaptable in a crisis, such as when she realizes the threat to the Eye of the World and diverts the party accordingly. Pedron Niall might be able to come up with a Plan B for making his name carry on after his death, but he’s not as clever as he thinks he is, and Ordeith is only going to make that worse for him, whispering ideas into his head that aren’t his.
It’s been pointed out several times by commenters that I never really question Moiriane’s loyalties. When she claimed that she never sent Verin to help Rand and Ingtar, I was quick to take this as proof that Verin was a liar, and therefore probably a Darkfriend, but I never really questioned whether Moiraine was, in fact, the one who was lying. And I may turn out to be wrong, but the way Moiraine approaches problems, allows herself to be led by the Patterns, trusts her own knowledge but always verifies it, and changes her mind when it seems to be incorrect or incomplete, makes me trust her. Thom is similar this way, I think; we see a lot of adaptability from him in The Eye of the World; he knows a lot more than most of the characters he interacts with but he never (or at least, rarely) lets that influence his choices. He trusts, but cautiously. He knows, but is aware that there is much more outside his own experience. And since Thom is sort of one half of the Gandalf-style wise guide and Moiraine the other, this makes sense.
After all, the reason Gandalf was the best of the Maia is because of his adaptability; sure he was also quite fallible and didn’t always make the right decisions, but he held onto truth because he was able to grow and accept new knowledge. Meanwhile Sauron got corrupted and Radagast turned into a hermit who couldn’t handle the job he was sent to Middle Earth to do.
But this is kind of a digression. Sorry about that.
Next week we will cover Chapters 1 through 3 of The Dragon Reborn, where we will see more awesome world-building and world-reminding-of from Jordan, and in which both Perrin and Rand will struggle with adaptability and accepting new knowledge that scares them. See you all again soon!
Sylas K Barrett is thinking about how all these books start with the wind doing something weird. It is very windy outside his window today, and he hopes that doesn’t mean the Dragon is coming.
Part of Niall’s problem is that he is a well-known commander of armies. He is an experienced tactician. But in wars it’s possible to have information about the other side. He has no information on these things, so he assumes there is little to be had.
He is also a Whitecloak, which is the second-most extreme religion there is in Randland. (The first being Darkfriends that think they’re anything but worms under the Dark One’s metaphorical boot.) The Whitecloak system of beliefs say certain things, and you don’t rise to prominence in such a faith without being, at least publicly, devout. He is blinded by the insistence that Aes Sedai are all conniving bastards, but I’d never really thought about the belief that ancient Aes Sedai were somehow immune in his mind. Nice connection.
And oh, the amount of time we’re going to spend with Fain. BUT … Jaret Byar will still be second string. We’ll have another player soon enough. Mostly because Jordan likes having that kind of cast list. I think if Tor published the Randland phone book it would be at least as long as New Spring.
I’m assuming you meant Saruman got corrupted? That’s okay – when I first read LotR I tended to speed read, and I went through most of it thinking Sauron and Saruman were the same person, lol. And of course the Blue Wizards wandered off into the East and lost sight of whever they were supposed to do (although I like the theory they were engaged in covert ops).
I like your analogy of the Whitecloaks as climate change deniers. Funny thing, when I was reading this, I was thinking a bit about ‘fake news’. There’s so much misinformation about what actually happens (especially in regards to who/what the Seanchan are, their relationship to the Aes Sedai, etc) that Pedron Niall draws totally incorrect conclusions. And while on one hand you kind of want to be sympathetic, as soon as you realize his concern really is more about his and the Whitecloak’s glory (including allowing a ‘lion to wander the streets’) and not really fighting for the Light (I mean, sure, they’ll do that – but they want their glory/recognition too)…it evaporates.
You know, funny thing is, I never thought about why he trusts the ancient Aes Sedai so much. Saying ‘because there were also men back then’ almost seems too easy since as far as I recall, Jordan doesn’t tend to pull into ‘mistrusting Aes Sedai becasue they are women’ trope.
So many of the points you raise could lead to potential spoilers and you may find the answers you seek – eventually!
Welcome to Book 3 Sylas!
Regarding Byar, an old adage comes to mind:
Byar is what nature made him, and what the Children shaped him to be. A specific kind of tool. That doesn’t mean its not his responsibility that he’s a tool. In every sense of the word, lol.
Of course not. The fundamental belief of the Children of the Light is that humans using the power of Creation (the One Power) is automatically evil, regardless of the intention of the user. Bornheld has commented on this in the past as well. It doesn’t really matter if the Aes Sedai are actually sworn to the Dark One. They are automatically “darkfriends” because Channeling is evil, and can only serve the Dark One’s ends, in their minds. When that is your fundamental belief on the subject, then there can’t be any room for the Dragon as a savior. Because that would require “evil” channeling.
As far as believing some prophecies and not others… that is not remotely different from how many, many people view the Christian bible. They pick and choose what to believe was actually said and actually happened, and when the rest of it disagrees with their notions of how things should be, they chalk it up to that part not being real, or a poor translation, or something cultural that they don’t understand. I have no problem believing someone like Niall is so convinced of his own rightness and intelligence that he believes he is able to parse the truth from the myth out of 3000 year old documents written in a language he doesn’t truly understand. Because I see it all the time.
When you point out the differences between Moiraine and Pedron Niall, you are pointing out the difference between wisdom and intelligence. One doesn’t necessarily grant the other, and they are rarely found together. Moiraine is exceptional because she has high levels of both. When she falls flat, its usually because she lacks the third leg of that particular tripod: knowledge.
The balance (and in some cases, deficit) that RJ gives older characters of wisdom, intelligence and knowledge is fascinating to examine, and is quite frankly, great characterization. He plays with those scales in a way that makes characters who could possibly run together still be completely unique.
@1:
If you are referring to // Dain //, he was already introduced in The Eye of the World. Or possibly you mean // Valda //? He’s mostly just a brute and an idiot.
IMO Dragon Reborn is when the series starts getting good. I trudged through the first two books but I really enjoyed this one.
The Whitecloaks are basically the Randland equivalent of American evangelical Christians – utterly convinced of the inherent rightness of their opinions, more than willing to accept at face value any scrap of information that confirms those opinions no matter how incomplete or factually incorrect it may be, and above all preternaturally able to ignore and dismiss any and all facts that render their opinions invalid. They also share the American Christian propensity for reveling in their own perceived victimhood despite being one of the more powerful factions on the entire continent, and the undisputed masters of an entire country.
@@.-@: You mean every problem looks looks like a Niall, right?
@7 I prefer the Catholic Inquisition as the model for the Whitecloaks. To the best of my knowledge, modern day Evangelical Christians don’t have a Hand of the Light.
Niall’s main issue is that he’s an egocentric, powerhungry megalomaniac, and he’s been indoctrinated in the Childrens zealotry for all his life. He can’t really conceive of people with any sort power thinking differently to how he does. He sees Aes Sedai motivations as evil, as thats what whitecloak doctrine says must be true, like 4. Anthony Pero said.
This book and the next are my favourite of the whole series, where it really starts to get interesting for me. Started the audiobook again for this one a few days ago. I was intending to maybe have my listening keep pace with this blog, but it hooked me in and I’m already over half way through, so oh well!
@8 Off to the Inquisitors with you.
I wonder if there’s commentary on the deficiencies of generals as politicians here.
ETA: @10 The Whitecloaks take the worst parts of at least the Evangelicals, Jesuits, and the Inquisition. There’s also a side order of witch-craze style zealotry. RJ rarely, if ever, uses a single source for his real-world based worldbuilding.
@11
I think it speaks to the commenters’ biases in what we see in the Randland cultures – especially the “bad” ones. Now, that’s not to say RJ didn’t have specific group(s) as inspiration for specific groups, but things like the Whitecloaks show the worst of any organization – religious, political, whatever – when they put the “mission” above all else. When you combine absolute certainty or the rightness of your cause the with idea of ends justifying the means, that is the result. Unfortunately, that applies to most, if not all, groups to some extent. If you look at any movement you believe in/agree with, you will find members who take it to the extreme. I like reading about the Whitecloaks not because they make me feel warm and fuzzy inside, but because they are a reminder to constantly look at my beliefs and the people I agree with.
It seems hypocritical to complain about Niall’s religious belief, when our heroes, Moraine and Rand, are basically the equivalent of a high priest leading Jesus Christ. The difference is that Moraine’s belief is the one true belief in this story. The Aes Sedai represent the Catholic Church and the White Cloaks would be more equivalent to the Jewish or Muslim faiths, who don’t believe in the Messiah but believe in the same God and basic World View.
I also find it interesting that you compare the “right way” of thinking in this story to Climate Change and Niall as a Climate Change Denier. It shows how much Climate Change has truly become a religion. Niall does not believe that the only true way to fight is to reduce CO2 (the Messiah) and to allow the politicians (Aes Sedai) to have all the power. He believes that the fight can be won by adaption and fighting climate change directly when it comes. It’s telling that everyone seems to want to denigrate and demonize Niall just because he does not believe in the Messiah and the One True Church.
@12 Well said.
Bear in mind that Niall does have a rational mind. Specifically the habits of thought- he’s got an ego, but he’s a practiced thinker. He’s not completely in love with his interpretations of a matter.
@12 //I can’t remember if this has been on screen yet but the Whitecloak’s founder is obviously a reference to the guy who founded the Jesuits. // The Questioners are a blatant caricature of the popular representation of the Inquisition. It’s not just commenter bias, RJ is making direct references to specific sources. It’s as deliberate as the names of Andoran royalty.
Can someone remind me who the false Dragon in Tear was?
Congrats on the anniversary, I had to skip ahead down here once I saw that part to say that, and to observe that, wow! Two entire WoT books in one year? Jordan would have been scandalized by that publishing pace ;) lmao.
@17 I’m pretty sure that’s a reference to Logain. // He was originally from Ghealdan, but if I remember correctly, after he gathered enough followers he started marching towards Tear, presumably in an attempt to claim Callandor. The Aes Sedai intercepted him. //
Very interesting commentary and insights. I don’t find Niall’s “illogic” to be as…offputting as you do, because it accurately reflects human nature: we don’t see what we have been conditioned not to see. Niall is one of the ‘Great Captains’ of Randland, a master tactician and strategist on the battlefield, but limited somewhat by his worldview. He’s downright ‘down to earth’ compared to most Whitecloaks.
I think you will find that Moiraine is just a subject to areas of blindness and forcing her ‘view’ of how things should be as the rest of us in the next couple of books. Well, okay, she is better at it than most, but her conversation (or more like confrontation) with Siuan Sanche & Rand at the beginning of The Great Hunt shows some blind spots in her view and ideas of how things should go as well. You’ll see more of that in this book.
@7, 11, 12:
As one of those dirty, irrational Evangelicals who has spent half his adult life working in a church as a pastor/staff member, I think I’ll just sit out this part of the conversation.
“Pedron Niall might be able to come up with a Plan B for making his name carry on after his death, but he’s not as clever as he thinks he is, and Ordeith is only going to make that worse for him, whispering ideas into his head that aren’t his.”
// Of course, we know Fain is capable of far more than just whispering bad advice in one’s ear. I think in a later prologue, can’t recall which book, where he’s with Elaida, he gloats that after what he’s done to them, neither Elaida nor Naill could ever support Rand. //
Meh, Whitecloaks. An institution with a brutality to rival the Seanchan or any Shadow-serving faction and (IMO) none of the ofhers’ interesting traits — aside fromt he fact that they think they’re *opposing* the Shadow. Good of “Ordeith” and a Myrddraal to arrive and liven things up.
///*snicker* In this story, the Dark One’s attack and ascent *is* climate change. Among other things. ///
The false dragon mentioned here is an Illianer who coukcoul channel. He was attacking Tear with his followers .I forget his name.
Let’s try and steer the discussion back to the Wheel of Time and away from sensitive subjects like (real-life) politics and religion. Thanks! Our full moderation policy can be found here.
@18:
To be fair, these three books were published on about this schedule. The Eye of the World and The Great Hunt were both published in 1990, and The Dragon Reborn early in 1991.
@@.-@. Anthony Pero:
I frequently disagree with your takes on stuff, but it has been a long time since I related to anything as hard as I related to your description of Niall and the Children here. I always see other folks who seem mystified and confused as to how they are relatable or realistic depictions; but as you said, living here in Alabama, these are mindsets, world views, and patterns of rationalization that I see and deal with every day.
But that is a lot of human nature. Another author I love, Sherilon Kenyon often talks about the reason her characters feel so real is because human nature isn’t found in the bedrocks of our characters, the ideals that each of us holds, instead it’s found in the strange little idiosyncrasies that undermine those ideals. In Nialls case those idiosyncrasies include believing that all Aes Sedai work is inherently evil because channeling by its very nature is wrong, even as he builds plans on the assumption that the Aes Sedai made seals on the DO’s prison are just fine and will last forever. Is it contradictory? Yup. Is that a very human flaw? You bet your ass it is. And it’s a flaw that we see very frequently magnified within the institutions that form organized religions of any stripe. And the Children are THE organized religion of Randland.
@25 Moderator
That comment was posted while I was typing my most recent and didn’t show up until I’d posted. Note taken.
@2 The Sauron reference isn’t completely off base. If you go to the earlier parts of the Similarion, Sauron is a fallen Maia. He fell back in the First Age following the original dark lord, Melkor/Morgoth.
@17 and 19 // The false dragon in Tear never gets a name. Later it’s mentioned that he is hunted down and executed on the spot in Haddon Mirk. //
I’m pretty sure it’s not a coincidence that “Ordeith” is rather similar to “Mordeth”.
I’m not so sure that Radagast was unable to handle his job. The Istari were given different tasks, and were chosen because they had talents suitable for those tasks. Gandalf cared for elves, humans, dwarves and hobbits, and is therefore featured prominently in stories written by hobbits. Radagast’s job was to protect the animals and plants of Middle-Earth, and I see little to suggest that he failed at that. If we would hear tales of the War of the Ring traditioned by the great eagles, then Radagast might have a more central role.
Addendum to my last post regarding the false dragon in Tear: // The execution happens in chapter 12 of this book, http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/history/dragon.html //
@16 noblehunter:
I don’t disagree with you that the Questioners were modeled after the Inquisition, or Andor and Camelot, etc. I know he did use some very direct models – but all have multiple influences as well. More I was commenting on how we as readers tend to not only look at historical groups that mirror a given Randland culture but project it onto modern equivalents, too. My point was mainly that to me, the Whitecloaks in their current state (not as they seem to have been initially set up) reflect the worst of any organization we find in the world – that they put destination before journey.
Great insights as always. I disagree though with the seamless reintroduction to the series. I’ve been trying to keep pace with your post but there is a particular scene midway through this book that I just had to get to. //Mat’s Moment of Awesome with Gawyn and Galad!// By the time I did get there I was totally fed up with the rehashing of every detail from the previous books. I found it incessant, distracting, and infuriating. I remember it being a chore on previous rereads too. It makes me wonder when this recapping of events and info stops being so involved and they rely on the reader by informed of who’s who and what’s already occured.
@29 yeah, I know who Sauron is, thanks. But from the context it seems he’s talking about the Istari.
@30 – not to derail, but most of Tolkien’s letters do in fact state that he turned away from his mission/was distracted. Although, as most things, he went a bit back and forth on it:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Radagast/Fail
@13 – as somebody who has a smidgen of sympathy towards the intent of the Children of the Light, the reason I want to denigrate Niall is specifcally because of his thoughts/actions here. He claims to be for the light, but really only if the Children of the Light are the ones behind it. He is willing to let Rand (who is evil in his mind) terrorize others simply so they can swoop in and save them. He’s Syndrome ;)
One more thing, I just want to say thanks to Sylas for leading this fun review. I always enjoy reading the recap/commentary and am excited for you to be starting this book.
On Niall and the children: I wish we got to see more from the Whitecloak texts. There’s some indication //through Galad// that the Whitecloaks started out as an actual force for good that was gradually perverted. It would be interesting to know if parts of Whitecloak doctrine are connected to the disconnect Sylas noted about trusting the Age of Legends Aes Sedai but not the modern Tower.
I’m glad you’re picking up on Niall’s inconsistent thinking and wondering if there’s another source for it (Ordeith). I love how RJ is able to present characters’ POVs and put us in a character’s head while also showing how there are things going on that shape the character’s thinking that the character isn’t aware of. And also how he can go in a character’s head without spoiling everything that’s motivating that character. //Verin, I’m looking at you. Can’t wait to get to the first Verin POV in this book.//
On that topic, this is my first re-read where I realized that //Graendal probably had compulsion on Byar, and probably got to him between Toman Head and Amador It’s interesting that not a single character in this chapter is doing things for the reasons they claim//. Shows how messy things get with so many competing agendas.
@Lisamarie (#2) Actually I did mean Sauron. He was one of the Maia/istari too, and was corrupted by Melkor, the origional Dark Lord of Middle-Earth. But you’re right, I wasn’t even thinking of Sauron, who goes basically the same way.
@olethros6 (#8) Thank you for that pun, you just made my week.
@@@@@ adjbaker (#13) Jesus and the Catholic church is not the most apt comparison for the Dragon and his followers, in my mind. If anything, Rand is more like the Dali Lama, except for the whole warrior thing. Of course no religion is a good comparison to Rand, because all religion is about faith, whereas we the readers know which answer is objective truth for the books. And I would argue that the Whitecloaks miltiance and scale of influence fits certian sects of Christianity throughout history much more than it can be fit as a comparison to Jewish sects.
Climate change is not a religion. It is based in scientific fact. Science is imperfect, we may disagree with what our findings mean, but it is not faith. It is the study of observable phenomena.
@Rombobjörn (#30) Oh good point! I hadn’t even thought of that. Possibly because of the spelling: I’ve been calling him “Keith” in my head and giggling. Not sure why.
I’ll have to revisit my understanding of Radagast! I always just think of the Maia as veing assigned the grand, big-picture roll of protecting against the influence of Melkor and Sauron, but you’re right that there’s more to it than that.
@12 Whitespine:
That’s a terrific take on the Whitecloaks. It’s a better approach to look at a group of people who do harm while they think they’re doing good as an object lesson in questioning our own assumptions and biases, rather than noticing how much they remind us of group X that we disagree with.
For me, the Whitecloaks, as well as the historical example of Aridhol and the upcoming saga of //Elaida//, were really what elevated this series over fantasy epics in which characters divide more neatly into those wearing white hats and those wearing black hats. It’s so much more true to our own world to see smart and dedicated people who think they’re battling evil instead winding up doing evil themselves. (Of course there are plenty of pure Eeeevil-for-the-sake-of-eeevil characters in WoT as well, but having the counterexamples adds a tremendous amount of texture).
S
@@@@@ 16 You mean Lothair Mantellar? I thought his name was based on Martin Luther, the guy who started Protestantism, and not Ignatious of Loyola, the guy who started the Jesuits.
@@@@@ Whitespine and Silvertip. Yeah I think that’s really the correct takeaway! A+
@@@@@ 34 I wouldn’t compare Niall to Syndrome. Syndrome wanted the recognition most of all. He created the crisis so he could come save the day.
I would compare him to Ozymandias from Watchmen. He sees a problem and only one way to solve it. If it involves the murder of millions, then what’s that when compared to saving billions? He lets the lion (Rand) walk among the city for everyone to understand that there is a crisis and needs to act together. Then, when the real danger comes out, they’re already united and stand a better chance to defeat it.
@41 // I could have sworn there’s an Ignatious of Loyola reference in WoT somewhere. I thought it was the founder of the Whitecloaks but apparently not. I know there’s text evidence for the whitecloaks/Jesuits connection but now I can’t say what it is. //
@37, I’m gonna ‘well, actually’ you here, but Sauron IS a fallen Maiar, but he is NOT an Istari. ;)
Also, ironically, I am pretty sure this time you DID type Sauron for Sauruman in the second part of your comment :)
@43 – I was being a little facetious there, but I think your comparison is a bit more apt as well. :) I like it!
@8, 37 The worst part of that pun is that it’s excellent but I can’t deploy it outside of a WoT context.
I always had a soft spot for Niall because he’s a kind of skeptic in a fantasy world. We saw how people in the Two Rivers, so far off from the rest of the world, didn’t believe in Trollocs. The Seanchan also didn’t believe in Shadowspawn, because most of them didn’t have experience with them, with their Blight having been ridden of those creatures for centuries. In this book we’ll see that some people in Illian or Tear don’t believe in Trollocs or snow, because they never saw those things.
And that’s so human. If you never see something, you start to question it’s veracity. Niall is another example of this. He has experience with Shadowspawn, Darkfriends and Channelers, so he believes in those things. But he has never seen the Dark One break free. And the Prophecies of the Dragon are full of cryptic references that could refer to anything (just like prophecies in the Bible, Quran or Nostradamus texts could mean anything). So he’s a realist. He deals with things that he has knowledge of. He believes in part of the prophecy, that a Last Battle is coming, but he believes it’s going to be a repeat of the Trolloc Wars, because he knows something like that happened in the past. He’s a skeptic regarding the more esoteric stuff in the prophecies. That a human will be Lews Therin’s reincarnation, that he will channel and that he’ll face the Dark One and win. Not even Lews Therin did that, he just made a patch on the Dark One’s prison, and went mad because of it. So how could one human do that, make what the Creator did at the beginning of time?
I think I have a soft spot for skeptics in fantasy worlds because I’d probably be one, believing in things like science and free will. It’s not just because people say it’s prophecy that means it necessarily will happen. We’ll see that in WoT with the Dark Prophecy, written in Fal Dara, and the Seanchan Prophecy of the Dragon serving the Chrystal Throne.
Ahhh, someone beat me to it. While I too believe he mistakenly used Sauron instead of Saruman, Sauron was indeed a Maia and was corrupted, following Melkor/Morgoth in his fall. A testament to Saurons might as he was able to turn Saruman despite being of the same race. Though thinking on it, I’m not sure pure power was the cause Saruman’s fall, rather than having access to the false wisdom of a worm speaking into your ear, programming your own doom, using your own vices to deceive you. So shall Pedron Niall fall. Such which caused Shadar Logoth’s fall, as did Lanfear and the rest of the Forsaken.
You see those same parallels, as noted here, of our own plight with deception for greed’s and ignorances sake. Some of us can see our doom coming, as we can see more and more minds twisted with deceit. The only difference is, and more perilous, is that our doom is years and years to come. Those alive this day, may not live through the cataclysm to come, so it’s easy to corrupt against what’s right when the end is not so near. And though our children and our children’s children may suffer, too many have chosen suspension of disbelief, choosing to deceive themselves for their own comforts, rather than acknowledge that they doom their offspring to suffering and pain. I mean who cares? I’ll be dead and gone anyways… That’s the logic of the deceivers themselves.
@47 That broadly aligns with my thoughts on him.
//I particularly liked how later, throughout much of this, he maintains a small degree of consistent effort to disprove his own hypothesis on the world situation, and eventually does. He’s a rational man during the prophesied end of the world.//
Pedron Niall and the Whitecloaks I think are so infuriating (even on the umpteenth reread) precisely because of how realistic that mindset is. You can argue all day long about capital-E Evil vs Good and what truly causes suffering, but all of us relate to instances of people who were simply misguided who cause hurt and suffering through their action or inaction. Love them or hate them, RJ wrote some pretty fascinating characters.
Re: Ordeith
“Wormwood” I think is a very significant choice. In addition to being the plant used to make absinthe, it’s an ominous reference to the Book of Revelation:
And here’s a fun fact I just learned that made me shiver. Guess how you translate “Wormwood” to Russian/Ukrainian? Chernobyl.
Well now that we’re talking more about Sauron and Saruman I am guaranteed to smash them up, lol. Y’all have seen me do it with Egwene and Elayne… heck, I’ve typed Rand instead of Perrin more than once! It is a skill I have.
But in any case, I believe I said Maia in the origional post itself, and that was what I meant, I specifically wanted to include Sauron, and not just talk about the wizards. Appologies if I’ve confused the issue since; I’ve been commenting on my phone while on the subway/waiting at the doctor’s office so I may have misread/mistyped something somewhere along the line!
“And now he’s in really hot water. It will be interesting to see how he handles his situation.”
Oh, in a very spiffy and pro-active manner, I’m sure, with how his scene in the prologue paints him as a guy with a very good poker face, but very little substance behind it. Although considering that he has two masters giving him two different sets of orders, along with two different horrible threats as punishment for failure, most peoples’ poker faces would turn into pants-wetting terror after those events happened.
As for Niall, his issues with figuring out what is going on probably, at least to me, came from two connected reasons.
1. He’s known as a good military mind, but this conflict is way beyond anything he’s used to, so he’s basically translating unfamiliar elements to ones that are familiar. While at least being somewhat aware enough that, as others have said, he’s actively thinking about stuff that might not be immediately coming to mind in order to potentially adjust his strategy. You put him in a regular “this country vs. that country” battle and he’d probably be a great general. But a setting loaded with people who are secret Darkfriends and where the “evil” magic-users aren’t actually all evil and are VERY important to winning a conflict and he’s more in a “you’re good, but not the man for this job” category. Like with his plans for Almoth and the like, that’s comparable to a game of Risk where you’re fighting like crazy to control Australia, while the real armies in the game have Asia and America on lock-down and are looking to control Europe, so you’re an afterthought in the game since they’re all getting tons of extra troops per turn and you’re getting 2.
2. He’s the head of a very rigid, black-n-white group whose members aren’t known for being open-minded or deep thinkers. He might be better than the average Child when it comes to looking at things from an outside-the-box perspective (I remember thinking when I last read the books that he seemed WAY more perceptive than the average Child, but was just not at the level of any number of other “tactician” characters re: the actual forces of darkness), but since he’s looking at different people and groups under the biased eye of his ironclad viewpoints (which, as mentioned with his differing views on the morality of modern Aes Sedai and the ones from ages past, often conflict in baffling ways), his accuracy isn’t all there.
Sylas, your takes here are truly astonishing to me. You’re thinking about things that absolutely never would have occurred to me this early on in the series and you’re honestly giving me new insight into things I hadn’t considered even though I’ve read the series over a dozen times. Truly impressive, thank you. //Like, for instance, the things Sylas wrote about Thom and Moirane here are things I’d never really considered, but which obviously come into play later on. Also, how in the world did Sylas already predict the existence of Beidomon a book and a half before we hear anything regarding that situation at all?//
Also… you say that you’re somebody who doesn’t like prologues… we’ll see how that holds up as we go along, because Robert Jordan loooooooved prologues.
@@@@@ 53 JimIII and others
I don’t feel that the definition of prologue is the same as in other books. When I include a prologue it’s usually a chapter at the beginning that is short. One story starts with Bob’s village being attacked and the death of his father, then Bob vows to put a stop to all the murderin’. The next chapter is his journey away from home, and is twice as long, though standard for my other chapters. Others try and use the prologue to squeeze in the details that they think are important to know going in, but (in many cases) would be better off in places where those ideas are discussed in-story.
Jordan has at least one prologue that spans over one hundred pages. In later books those prologues often take place in the previous books, with different characters’ perspectives ending about the time the previous book did. // He even wrote one book with a seven-hundred page prologue! j/k but the long-time readers know which one I’m talking about. //
“but I do wonder why it was that no female Aes Sedai chose to go with Lews Therin, unless there is more to the story than we know”
Yes, there is a story that you don’t know. It’s a short story written by Jordan in… I don’t remember exactly when, in mid ‘90s. The short story is about Lews Therin Telamon and his struggle versus the Dark One. You can read the story now, or you can read it after The Shadow Rising, a books that has some important revelations. In The Strike at Shayol Ghul there are no spoiler about the novels you aven’t read yet. You can find it here:
https://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=The_Strike_at_Shayol_Ghul
@55. Martina Frammartino
Good look on “The Strike at Shayol Gul” . Very interesting reading, that, with a lot of foretelling of the future, which in and of itself caused a huge rash of conversations and arguments about the meanings of certain things and happenings with huge ramifications. Definitely recommend that as a post and possibly several posts.
One aspect of the Whitecloaks that is being overlooked is that they’ve consistently failed throughout their history. As an organization dedicated to the notion that channeling is evil, the White Tower still stands as the premier power in the world. I hesitate to point out real world parallels, but that’s where a lot of the previous ones mentioned above break down for me. While the Whitecloaks have great authority in Amador, they’ve been trying to expand their religion for centuries and have pretty much been stuck. Sure they can bully small villages here and there, but no large scale movement outside of their home country.
So not only do you have a prejudiced and unforgiving system of belief, you have the cognitive dissonance in its leadership from their religion’s failure to deliver on what it promised. “I know this is the truth.” “People aren’t accepting this.” “People must be blind and should be made to accept it.”
58. tbgh Pretty much why I loathe organized religion in general and why it should be fought at every step.
@55
RE; the short story “The Strike at Shayol Ghul.”
I believe it was not published until after The Fires of Heaven, in the lead up to the release of Lord of Chaos. But I may be one book off. Either way, in my opinion, it should most definitely not be read until after The Shadow Rising. It stomps all over reveals in that book.
12.Whitespine
Well put.
21. Anthony Pero
Ha! :)
47. Ryamano
Yeah, that’s how I see him, too. He’s not megalomaniacal, he’s just dealing with the world based on his experience, and he can’t help the fact that his world contains vast fields which are completely outside his experience. The same is true of all of us.
@12:
Here’s the thing about the Whitecloaks, and the point at which your comparison fails – sure, there are zealots and fanatics in any organization or movement. Most of the time they are recognized as such and marginalized and ignored. But the Whitecloaks are an organization completely comprised of zealots and fanatics. They’re not “the worst of the organization”, they’re an organization of the worst.
@fernandan (#50): After a bit of browsing on Wikipedia I find that the plant called chornóbyl’ (чорно́биль, “black stalk”) is Artemisia vulgaris, common mugwort. It’s not the same as Artemisia absinthium, absinthe wormwood, nor is it Artemisia herba-alba, “white herb”, the Biblical wormwood.
Sylas, I do want to say I hope I wasn’t coming off as overly critical. I just really like geeking out about Tolkien. Interestingly, for me Saruman is an interesting one to ponder as well because in a way he fell prey to despair and couldn’t see any way to beat Sauron with sheer force/power, so he figured, ‘well, might as well join them’. Which also seems somewhat relevant in this discussion about flexibility of thought.
@63 – which does beg the question, were they ALWAYS like that? Do we know enough about the founder and its early days to know? I don’t think there’s any bearing to this whatsoever, but it could almost be another example of //Ishy’s meddling//. That said, obviously there does not need to be a ‘supernatural’ explanation for groups of humans turning into fanatics and becoming narrow minded and inflexible about it. We do that quite well on our own.
“That said, obviously there does not need to be a ‘supernatural’ explanation for groups of humans turning into fanatics and becoming narrow minded and inflexible about it. We do that quite well on our own. “
Don’t forget murderous! Wherever fanatics around, murder is around the corner. The Whitecloaks are no different and all we need do is pick up the newspaper and/or a history book to see the truth of that.
The next several books will show how RJ repeatedly reinforms the reader of info that’s common knowledge to the reader. My best guess is he did that so each book could sorta stand alone (if you were to start somewhere in the middle) and not be completely lost.
Remind me please, is this the book when // Mat gets cleansed from the daggers influence?// My fave character!!
@@@@@ my 67
That was the only thing that became annoying to me through my multiple reads…
It’s worth remembering the distinction between Tactics, Strategy, Operations, and Policy. Pedron Niall is a tactical genius. Give him a battle and he’ll be very likely to win it even against all odds. He’s an okay strategist, he can plan grand maneuvers pretty well but isn’t brilliant at it (a strategic genius moves pieces around such that he wins wars even if he loses battles). He’s a mediocre operations planner, who finds his plans constantly foiled by circumstance and his grand objectives rarely accomplished. He’s a bad policy creator, who has a poor grasp of the actual world state and acts from both bad information and flawed assumptions, and the policies that he seeks to implement aren’t all that great even if his information and assumptions are spot-on.
Pedron Niall’s world view is definitely naive compared with the other great captains’ world views IMO
You don’t have to be a great scientist with a realistic view of the world or a nice person to win battles //Mat manages to do it by accident.// Convincing your soldiers that your enemies are all evil darkfriends might even be an advantage in war. Of course outside war that isn’t a good attitude for a politician. The Whitecloaks will never have good political relations with Tar Valon.
Re genius in battle tactics //The best example is Mat. He becomes perhaps the greatest battle commander ever, but I don’t think he would make a very good king. The skill sets are very different.//
@68 -yes!
@72: To quote Master Oogway, there *are* no accidents.
About the cover: Obviously that’s the Heart of the Stone and the Sword that is not, but is that supposed to be Mat and Perrin watching I presume Rand?
@76. It is absolutely Perrin, given the axe. Can’t be sure but it is likely that is Mat as a generic teen onlooker. Sylas will need to see at a later date (don’t tell him) whether this is book based or “fantasy.”
@68 //Chapter 18 – Healing//
Regarding the founder of the Children of the Light: //What we know about him mostly comes from small excerpts of the book he wrote that Min reads. He seems to be an ascetic.
The key things there that are outside the norm for our most common religions is “abjure all pleasure” and “take all joy in rightness and rightness only.” That means people shouldn’t care about feeling good and a small step to you shouldn’t care about making people feel bad. Don’t worry about emotions and empathy as long as what you’re doing is right (by my definition of right). So while he might not be on board with everything the new Whitecloaks do, they’re not that far apart.//
This is the book I started the series with, when it came out, so long ago, fresh in paperback. While reading it, I did not realize for some time that it was part three of a series, and it was all very confusing. That this is the way I had my first contact with WOT had a huge impact on my relationship with certain characters. I adore Perrin, and never got to really like Rand. I am pretty sure it would have been different if I‘d started at the beginning, like you are supposed to. By the way, the exact same thing happened to me with Outlander: I accidentally started that series on book three, too. It is a talent.
Hi! I’m quite late to the game, obviously, so I don’t know if anyone will look back here. But if there’s a moderator around I’d like to point out that while I’ve read the posts up to here with no problem, here there’s just the opening two paragraphs and then a “more…” link that doesn’t work. Which distressed me because I was really looking forward to Sylas’s thoughts on this prologue.
For myself, I’m impressed at how well Jordan depicts characters who are intelligent and thoughtful but have flawed intel and/or assumptions, and thus end up simultaneously deeply insightful about some things and deeply wrong about others. It’s automatically sympathetic to me as a thinking person, and it’s an aspect of human character not every writer does well at.